So an incredibly tenacious troll hit the fink lists again, and this time instead of petering out like he normally does (when no one cares), he worked himself into a hell of a froth and ranted to everyone he could find. Somehow he seems to believe a proprietary company kept the XonX developers from releasing hardware accelerated OpenGL. Don't ask me what the hell he's talking about. If he really thinks that's what happened, he's worse off than anyone can imagine. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * From: lenny bruce * Subject: Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time? * Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:43:12 -0800 On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 09:14 AM, KaOs wrote: > I wonder if Apple will make it impossible for Fink to continue to develop > as it has by the introduction of developer tool changes. The reason I ask > this is that the EULA forbids the "patching" of add-ons to the "embedded" > Mac apps for OS X. Apple is, in other words, giving independent developers > a hard time. They support OpenDarwin, but they do not even mention Fink as > an alternative. It seems to me that there is little, if any, cooperation > of Apple to the Fink Project. The recent "upgrade" that put the Fink > project on hold for months eloquently demonstrates that.., as does the > recent choice of an inferior browser as "default". > So I would like to know what is the reality of the Fink situation in > relation to Apple......, and should I begin thinking of a complete Debian > PPC Woody "take-over" install on my hard drive? > > Chaos is freedom! Realize that Apple did this for the opposite reason... X11 on Mac OS X was being crippled by a bully in the marketplace: TENON. Your assumption about Apple's motives would be correct in most instances but this one because Apple's motive was to destroy Tenon's illegal hegemony. Apple's corporate customers were fleeing because Tenon was illegally preventing the free release of XFree86 with Hardware OpenGL support on Mac OS X. Apple's motives in releasing X11 was to stop the hemorrhaging. Apple has no interest in X11 because they're following the NeXT philosophy of using their own window server to serve their own kind of programs. X11 is the window server every other flavor of UNIX uses to serve programs. Apple hacked NeXT's window server to broaden its horizons beyond Cocoa to serve windows for Carbon, Java, and the Classic compatibility layer. X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of OS X that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they could profit. Nobody knows what means Tenon used to force XonX to keep HW OpenGL from XFree86 but Apple invalidated the scheme by releasing it for free. It wouldn't be a big deal if HW OpenGL support in XFree86 was payware on any other platform... but it's free everywhere else. Now it's free on Mac OS X and Tenon can go back under a rock for all we care. lenny bruce I am not a comedian, keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * From: Andrew Hartung * Subject: Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time? * Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:45:18 -0800 On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of OS X > that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they could profit. this guy really needs to get a dictionary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * From: lenny bruce * Subject: Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time? * Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:19:41 -0800 On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:32 AM, Andrew Hartung wrote: > On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > > X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of OS X > > that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they could profit. > > this guy really needs to get a dictionary. it was a scheme, classic criminal racketeering... * make sure you're the only one selling it * block anybody else from giving it away XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it back. Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL free. Apple was just too big to be intimidated the way Tenon did with XonX. Somehow people refuse to see it with computer stuff... but it's the same crime whether it's done with oil, the right to vote, alcohol, or any other product/service. lenny bruce I am not a comedian, keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * From: Max Horn * Subject: Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time? * Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:42:27 -0800 At 12:03 Uhr -0800 22.01.2003, lenny bruce wrote: > On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:32 AM, Andrew Hartung wrote: > > > On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > > > > > X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of OS X > > > that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they could profit. > > > > this guy really needs to get a dictionary. > > it was a scheme, classic criminal racketeering... > > * make sure you're the only one selling it > * block anybody else from giving it away > > XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it back. > Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL free. > Apple was just too big to be intimidated the way Tenon did with XonX. > > > Somehow people refuse to see it with computer stuff... > but it's the same crime whether it's done with oil, > the right to vote, alcohol, or any other product/service. OK, dude, now unless you can actually give hard facts and proofs for your ramblings (and I don't see how you could do so), stop this NOW. Stop accusing people for crimes when you can't prove it - in most democratic countries, doing that is a crime in itself and you can be sued for it. Even better, stop it anyway, even in the unlikely event that you can prove your statements, because this discussion really doesn't belong on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * From: lenny bruce * Subject: Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time? * Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:41:05 -0800 On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 02:50 AM, Brendan Lane Larson wrote: > lenny, can you help me with the following: wait, hold a sec... I don't claim all that you say. I really don't think you understand what I said. It's XFree86, not Mac OS X, that we're discussing. XFree86 is a X Window Server that runs on many platforms. > 1.) How did Tenon acquire this blackmail option over the Macintosh (Mac OS X > specifically, not Mac OS 9?) implementation of Hardware OpenGL for Xfree86 in > the first place? > > 2.) When did Tenon acquire this blackmail option on Hardware OpenGL? nobody said "blackmail" the word is "racketeering" XonX ported XFree86 so it would compile in Darwin (Mac OS X's underlying layer) but "port" is kind of the wrong word... they didn't need to provide a missing infrastructure the way one might use GUSI and Cygwin to do to get UNIX programs to run on Mac OS 9 and Windoze http://www.cygwin.com/ - http://www.iis.ee.ethz.ch/~neeri/macintosh/gusi-qa.html Darwin is real (Univ of Calif) BSD UNIX running on the (Carnagie Mellon) Mach kernel basically XonX had to adjust for some goofiness we have with shared libraries and this is the necessary component that enables HW OpenGL support. XonX also came up with the idea for the XDarwin launcher for Aqua. XonX didn't exactly invent the wheel here... it was mainly about realizing it could be compiled easily on Mac OS X. Like a lot of people recently... it occurred to me that I could run ms-windoze programs more quickly using WINE by running a minimal UNIX-X11 combo on Virtual PC and then forwarding the X Windows to my Mac OS X's X11... avoiding MS Windoze. It doesn't mean I'm a genius... it was just something that could be done. It was a drag to do but I did it... XonX's effort was a lot like that. > 3.) What part of XFree86 and/or X (X11R6.4?), among the numerous many > components and pieces that comprise Xfree86 and X, is the *specific* > component(s) that provides Hardware OpenGL capability, when compiled for > the Macintosh (Mac OS X)? GLX... but it's part of the XFree86 package. The key is the link between GLX and the host platform's OpenGL libraries. HW OpenGL support in XFree86 relies on two things: * a shared or static link * HW OpenGL libraries in the first place. XonX wrote original code that enabled shared library support in XFree86. Apple wrote the OpenGL libraries that connected to ATI and NVIDIA hardware. Only on Mac OS X was this link payware... and herein lies the mystery. Compiling XFree86 on Darwin was difficult for XonX because they're just people. Apple has unique knowledge because they own NeXT and make Mac OS X. Apple was helping XonX in their efforts to get XFree86 running on Darwin but clearly they were have a difficult time getting a straight answer about why Tenon was selling XonX's HW code while XonX released SW-Only OpenGl when the link relied on Apple's OpenGL code in the first place... Apple was only involved in helping XonX as a nicety in the first place trying to score points in open-source work that wasn't related to Mac OS X... but when this mystery about denying free HW OpenGL support while Tenon sold it started to drive away big customers because it was free on every other platform Apple simply said "screw you" to whatever the mystery was with Tenon and XonX. They compiled XFree86 for themselves and released it... PROBLEM SOLVED. Some try to defend XonX by saying that their HW-OpenGL-enabled XFree86 was available on the CVS server... but that blocks the majority of the market and it wasn't exactly common knowledge until I began bitching about it. Most people use Fink/FinkCommander as compiling stuff manually is beyond them. The reality of the releases available to the common people was SW-OpenGL-only. Plus, if it was free... why weren't the other packagers of XFree86 on Mac OS X allowed to include the HW OpenGL version on their shareware CDs??? > 4.) How did Apple deprecate Tenon's blackmail option? Did a patent owned by > Tenon finally expire? Did Apple license a patent or license software from > Tenon? If so, at what cost? I'm an Apple shareholder and would like to know. forget the word patent... XFree86's license is open and free The mystery was why only Tenon had HW OpenGL support and XonX wasn't releasing it too... especially as XonX did all the work. We don't know how Tenon kept XonX from releasing it... that's the mystery. Blocking others from releasing something so you can be the only source is called RACKETEERING. Sometimes the government controls special licenses so that they can conduct alcohol sales (State Liquor Stores, for example) or for others that they deem legally entitled to control a market. Tenon didn't have any right to be blocking others yet they were doing it anyway... that's why it's CRIMINAL RACKETEERING. Microsoft did it to DRI (the original authors of DOS) when they closed out DR-DOS to make sure MS-DOS was the only source. Standard Oil did it to local service stations when they'd move next door and drop the price of gas to a penny... then raise it back to normal when the other station went out of business. It's even worse here because Tenon was blocking a free program from free release so they could profit from selling it when they had no role in writing it and no license/patent/whatever to restrict it. > 5.) Under what license does Apple's release of the specific component(s) > comprising Hardware OpenGL for Xfree86 on the PowerPC architecture fall? > GPL? LGPL? APSL? Something else? Does not Apple's release of X11 > contain proprietary code? Apple is releasing all code in the "X11 for Mac OS X" package except for the Quartz-WM window manager. Quartz-WM is nice but nobody says you can't use one of the 100+ other ones. I really like XFWM/XFCE. > Thank you for further elaborating, lenny. Jeez, get some cultural references... you're addressing a legendary comedian who died in 1966. I'm the father of Stand-Up Comedy, for christ's sake! I'm the guy who made it okay to say "fuck" in public. Giving people the finger is a great honor to my legacy. I get these long letters with "lenny this" and "lenny that"... my personal favorite is when they address me as "Mr. Bruce". I hate to break it to ya but up here in heaven... licensing doesn't matter. Everybody knows Jesus uses Mac. I optimized His Titanium Powerbook last week. > I believe this is a relevant topic that should not be dismissed. Please > help me to understand the explicit differences between Xfree86 (that I am > still currently running via Fink installation with XDarwin) and Apple's X11. > I never want to get myself into a situation where the software I'm using is > proprietary. I can tell that you're happy about Apple's release of X11 and > Tenon losing its grip, but I am afraid to download Apple's X11 and install > it ... fearful that I might get hooked into something proprietary. Nope, the single proprietary part is Quartz-WM. Want to stay free of it? It's easy. Simply change your .xinitrc file at the end to exec something else. > Furthermore to my worry about any part of X11 released by Apple under > APSL (or some other restrictive license), there has been some > controversy recently about the APSL, in addition to the DMCA. See that > proclus of GNU-Darwin is dropping PPC support of GNU-Darwin: I agree that Apple isn't very comfortable in the Open Source world but ironically they released "X11 for Mac OS X" to ensure it would be free. I've explained already that Apple has no interest in X11 because they are furthering the NeXTStep concept... > http://www.macslash.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/18/2332242&mode=flat > > {snip} > > Thus, in line with what proclus has said about his policy in the context > of the APSL needing a "revision", and thus no longer supporting or > distributing any software which links to proprietary libraries, I'd like to > know just what the heck is going on here with Apple's X11 and what Tenon's > legacy is regarding the Hardware GL for Xfree86. You have to realize that GNU-Darwin is trying to replace the Linux kernel with the Mach kernel and replace every other part of the Linux core with OpenStep. GNU-Darwin was only with XonX until they got XFree86 up and running. Others went forward to integrate XFree86 with Mac OS X's Aqua. The PPC market for OpenStep is smaller than microscopic because most people with PPC hardware have Mac OS X and their X11 needs are already served for free anyway now. The GNU-Darwin people are talking about Darwin WITHOUT Aqua. How many people do you know who run that? > What about the future of XDarwin??? XDarwin is the link to let Aqua users launch XFree86. Apple calls theirs "X11"... it's not a genius piece of software. > Thank you very very much for helping me further understand this very important topic. Hey, no problem... I'm sorry I had to bitch this loudly to get HW OpenGL in Mac OS X's XFree86... like every other platform has. lenny bruce I am not a comedian, keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * From: Roger Howard * Subject: Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time? * Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:53:44 -0800 On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:28 PM, lenny bruce wrote: > We don't know how Tenon kept XonX from releasing it... that's the mystery. The mystery is WHETHER Tenon did, which you have not provided an inkling of evidence for, just rampant paranoid speculation. Beyond that, even if Tenon "kept XonX from releasing it" you don't know whether that was an illegal act like the racketeering you claim, or a legitimate business arrangement. You haven't even proposed a plausible way in which Tenon COULD have prevented them from releasing a port of an open source project, and I fail to see any such possibility unless Tenon simply paid them off, which wouldn't be illegal. Grow up, move on, find a real enemy if you must. This list is about Fink support, not unfounded tech conspiracies. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * From: Benjamin Reed * Subject: [Fink-users] Stop this thread. (Was: Will Apple give Fink a hard time?) * Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:58:01 -0800 On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 12:28 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > nobody said "blackmail" > the word is "racketeering" OK, Lenny. Stop. Now. Apparently emailing you in private was not enough. While we allow slightly-off-topic discussion of X11 and it's relationship with Fink, you are out of line. Apparently e-mailing you in private and asking you to chill out was not enough. Everyone, please stop encouraging him. Consider this thread dead. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** FROM HERE ON WAS E-MAIL BETWEEN HIM AND I *** From: lenny bruce Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:45:52 AM America/New_York To: Benjamin Reed Subject: golly gee, mister guilty, why does it bother you so much? On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 04:43 AM, Benjamin Reed wrote: > On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 12:28 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > > > nobody said "blackmail" > > the word is "racketeering" > > OK, Lenny. > > Stop. > > Now. > > Apparently emailing you in private was not enough. While we allow > slightly-off-topic discussion of X11 and it's relationship with Fink, > you are out of line. Apparently e-mailing you in private and asking you to > chill out was not enough. > > Everyone, please stop encouraging him. Consider this thread dead. Please everyone... please stop asking questions about our crimes. Please stop pointing out that we're criminals exploiting open-source for profit. It's sad how your questioning has reduced us to software racketeering when we're capable of so much more If we can just get you people quiet, complacent, and unquestioning, then we can start rounding up Blacks for slavery again and get those Jews herded into the ovens where they belong... Can you wipe your nose, my child, without them starting in your file a photograph? Will you sleep in fear tonight? Or wake to find the scorching light of neighbor Jim, he's come to turn you in... Is freedom really slavery, Mister Reed? Is this bug really a feature, Mister Reed? Are you really helping us instead of quieting legitimate suspicion? Someone to claim us, someone to follow Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo Someone to fool us, someone like you Someone to claim us, someone to follow Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo Someone to fool us, someone like you Someone to claim us, someone to follow Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo Someone to fool us, someone like you We want you, Big Brother! lenny bruce I am not a comedian, keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Benjamin Reed Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:06:39 AM America/New_York To: lenny bruce Subject: Re: golly gee, mister guilty, why does it bother you so much? On Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 01:45 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > Please everyone... please stop asking questions about our crimes. > Please stop pointing out that we're criminals exploiting open-source for profit. What the hell are you talking about? How is it exploiting when the X people explicitly put it under a license that lets you do whatever you want? XFree86 isn't GPL. Take a look at the license. > Is freedom really slavery, Mister Reed? > Is this bug really a feature, Mister Reed? > Are you really helping us instead of quieting legitimate suspicion? The people who *created* XFree86 gave everyone the freedom to do whatever they want. Including the freedom to make changes and not give them back. > lenny bruce I am not a comedian, > keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. I'll give you that, you're definitely not a comedian. But you can't be serious, either, can you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: lenny bruce Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:06:05 AM America/New_York To: Benjamin Reed Subject: golly gee, mister guilty, do we need the ACLU ??? uh... "MYSTERIOUSLY" I got involuntarily unsubscribed from the Fink-Users list and it isn't the first time... Do we need the ACLU to deal with Freedom Of Speech issues here? Why does honest talk about Tenon's criminal racketeering scare you so much? Are you involved? How far are you willing to go to hide this crime? lenny bruce I am not a comedian, keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Benjamin Reed Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:13:08 AM America/New_York To: lenny bruce Subject: Re: golly gee, mister guilty, do we need the ACLU ??? On Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 02:06 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > uh... "MYSTERIOUSLY" I got involuntarily unsubscribed from the Fink-Users list > and it isn't the first time... Actually, Max unsubscribed you at about the same time I responded to you originally. Not that I disapprove, if you'd gone bitching to the list again, I would have done it myself. > Do we need the ACLU to deal with Freedom Of Speech issues here? Hahaha... > Why does honest talk about Tenon's criminal racketeering scare you so much? > Are you involved? > > How far are you willing to go to hide this crime? If you're so pissed, how about you take them to court. In the meantime, you were off-topic on the Fink list, and have already shown you have no intention of being a useful part of the community. Man it's so much fun talking to a troll one-on-one. Do you really think anyone takes you seriously? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: lenny bruce Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:56:17 PM America/New_York To: Benjamin Reed Subject: how much different from Al Capone or any other bully? On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Reed wrote: > On Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 02:06 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > > > uh... "MYSTERIOUSLY" I got involuntarily unsubscribed from the Fink-Users list > > and it isn't the first time... > > Actually, Max unsubscribed you at about the same time I responded to you > originally. Not that I disapprove, if you'd gone bitching to the list again, > I would have done it myself. > > > Do we need the ACLU to deal with Freedom Of Speech issues here? > > Hahaha... Al Capone never thought he'd be caught either. He thought he could do anything he wanted. He laughed at anybody who thought they could stop him. He _wasn't_ untouchable by the law. In this case it's freedom of speech. It's been tested many times in cases of e-mail discussion lists and it always results in very large damages... you could be killing sourceforge with your careless bullshit... look at this: Pn Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:20:05 PM US/Pacific, fink-users-admin wrote: > Your mail to 'Fink-users' with the subject > > cfengine-2.0.1-2 - bad .info file option > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Sender is explicitly forbidden > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. I think you'd better tell sourceforge that you're putting them at serious risk. I'm sure they'd rather just dump the fink project altogether rather than face a legal challenge over freedom of speech. Surely they don't support your criminal denial of my freedom of speech. > > Why does honest talk about Tenon's criminal racketeering scare you so much? > > Are you involved? > > > > How far are you willing to go to hide this crime? > > If you're so pissed, how about you take them to court. > In the meantime, you were off-topic on the Fink list, it's directly ON topic fink only distributes the sw-opengl-only version of xfree86 when he hw-opengl version sits languishing in the cvs... why not release that to the fink audience??? golly gosh gee > and have already shown you have no intention > of being a useful part of the community. I answer tech questions and I help others. Also I discover bugs early and ask for solutions long before others would have similar problems. > Man it's so much fun talking to a troll one-on-one. Do you really think > anyone takes you seriously? Better a troll than a criminal... Do we need FEDS in here to figure out the difference? Do we need to have a full investigation? lenny bruce I am not a comedian, keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Benjamin Reed Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:21:22 PM America/New_York To: lenny bruce Subject: Re: how much different from Al Capone or any other bully? On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 03:56 PM, lenny bruce wrote: > On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Reed wrote: > > On Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 02:06 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > > > > > uh... "MYSTERIOUSLY" I got involuntarily unsubscribed from the Fink-Users list > > > and it isn't the first time... > > > > Actually, Max unsubscribed you at about the same time I responded to you > > originally. Not that I disapprove, if you'd gone bitching to the list again, > > I would have done it myself. > > > > > Do we need the ACLU to deal with Freedom Of Speech issues here? > > > > Hahaha... > > Al Capone never thought he'd be caught either. > He thought he could do anything he wanted. > He laughed at anybody who thought they could stop him. > He _wasn't_ untouchable by the law. > > In this case it's freedom of speech. > It's been tested many times in cases of e-mail discussion lists > and it always results in very large damages... > you could be killing sourceforge with your careless bullshit... What the hell are you talking about? You were warned several times that you were off-topic, and if you continued to do so, you'd be removed from the list. You continued to do so, so you were removed from the list. Nobody's stopping you from ranting against Tenon, only from doing it on the fink list. > I think you'd better tell sourceforge that you're putting them at serious risk. > I'm sure they'd rather just dump the fink project altogether > rather than face a legal challenge over freedom of speech. > Surely they don't support your criminal denial of my freedom of speech. You should figure out what freedom of speech means. You still have the right to organize, you still have the right to say whatever you want about Tenon. The Fink administrators have the right to run the list as they see fit. If the Fink list was a list about discussing free speech issues as they related to XFree86 and MacOS, sure. It's not. Get over it. There are many forums where you'd be on-topic -- the XFree86 list, the Apple X11 list. Fink's list is about installing and porting software, not about your belief that Tenon did something wrong. Some discussion of XFree86 is allowed on the Fink list because it's related -- installation issues, bugs, etc. Their motivation for doing anything, especially when it's an unfounded, pointless, and just plain paranoid rant like your own, is NOT. > > If you're so pissed, how about you take them to court. > > In the meantime, you were off-topic on the Fink list, > > it's directly ON topic > fink only distributes the sw-opengl-only version of xfree86 > when he hw-opengl version sits languishing in the cvs... > why not release that to the fink audience??? golly gosh gee http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/fink/experimental/rangerrick/finkinfo/x11-system/Attic/ As you can see, we've been making packages of XFree86 CVS since at least August of last year, and I believe there were some even earlier, that just didn't get checked in. They're not stable enough to be released to the public. In fact, Torrey just fixed some other stability bugs that finally make it usable with binaries built against 4.2.1 last week. It's not a friggin' conspiracy. YOU could get it whenver you wanted. It was not, however, "supportable" in any meaningful way. > I answer tech questions and I help others. > Also I discover bugs early and ask for solutions > long before others would have similar problems. You also didn't listen when we asked you to stay on topic multiple times. > > Man it's so much fun talking to a troll one-on-one. Do you really think > > anyone takes you seriously? > > Better a troll than a criminal... > Do we need FEDS in here to figure out the difference? > > Do we need to have a full investigation? Of what? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: lenny bruce Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:56:05 AM America/New_York To: Benjamin Reed Subject: you're a looney tune who will cost SourceForge a million dollars On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 01:21 PM, Benjamin Reed wrote: > On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 03:56 PM, lenny bruce wrote: > > On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Reed wrote: > > > > Al Capone never thought he'd be caught either. > > He thought he could do anything he wanted. > > He laughed at anybody who thought they could stop him. > > He _wasn't_ untouchable by the law. > > > > In this case it's freedom of speech. > > It's been tested many times in cases of e-mail discussion lists > > and it always results in very large damages... > > you could be killing sourceforge with your careless bullshit... > > What the hell are you talking about? You were warned several times that you > were off-topic, and if you continued to do so, you'd be removed from the list. > > You continued to do so, so you were removed from the list. > > Nobody's stopping you from ranting against Tenon, only from doing it on the > fink list. I'm not trying to "rant" about Tenon... the post I referenced was about a bug in cfengine. you can't decide things like this you just end up paying enormous fines when you dare think you can > > I think you'd better tell sourceforge that you're putting them at serious risk. > > I'm sure they'd rather just dump the fink project altogether > > rather than face a legal challenge over freedom of speech. > > Surely they don't support your criminal denial of my freedom of speech. > > You should figure out what freedom of speech means. You still have the right > to organize, you still have the right to say whatever you want about Tenon. > The Fink administrators have the right to run the list as they see fit. you're a looney tune... the right to organize is a separate right I never mentioned the right to organize we're talking about freedom of speech and legal challenges over this issue in Internet Discussion Lists have cost people and companies millions of dollars and only resulted in speech being freed again after illegal attempts to stop it never once has anybody ever won taking your position > If the Fink list was a list about discussing free speech issues as they > related to XFree86 and MacOS, sure. It's not. Get over it. notice your confused thought patterns it doesn't have to be a list ABOUT free speech we have freedom of speech no matter the topic if I wanted... I could have long discussions about anal sex in "Fink Users" yet I'm actually on topic... fink is refusing to release this code the insulting part is this act about having to write from scratch something XonX wrote months ago and gave away to Tenon to sell > There are many forums where you'd be on-topic -- the XFree86 list, the Apple > X11 list. Fink's list is about installing and porting software, not about > your belief that Tenon did something wrong. Some discussion of XFree86 is > allowed on the Fink list because it's related -- installation issues, bugs, > etc. Their motivation for doing anything, especially when it's an unfounded, > pointless, and just plain paranoid rant like your own, is NOT. > > > > If you're so pissed, how about you take them to court. > > > In the meantime, you were off-topic on the Fink list, > > > > it's directly ON topic > > fink only distributes the sw-opengl-only version of xfree86 > > when he hw-opengl version sits languishing in the cvs... > > why not release that to the fink audience??? golly gosh gee > > http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/fink/experimental/rangerrick/finkinfo/x11-system/Attic/ > > As you can see, we've been making packages of XFree86 CVS since at least > August of last year, and I believe there were some even earlier, that just > didn't get checked in. > > They're not stable enough to be released to the public. In fact, Torrey just > fixed some other stability bugs that finally make it usable with binaries > built against 4.2.1 last week. It's not a friggin' conspiracy. YOU could get > it whenver you wanted. It was not, however, "supportable" in any meaningful > way. oh, I see... you've released them where nobody can find them... "hey, look, way up in the attic where nobody would ever guess to look, we've released the ultra-secret HW-OpenGL version of XFree86..." (I would have used the word attic for comic purposes anyway but you've actually literally released it in the "attic" of CVS!) why not try a scavenger hunt edition... where you can have it only if you find pieces scattered all over the net? try the Debian Jigdo method, but without a map. if a package is released where nobody will ever find it, did it really get released? > > I answer tech questions and I help others. > > Also I discover bugs early and ask for solutions > > long before others would have similar problems. > > You also didn't listen when we asked you to stay on topic multiple times. study the Larry Flynt case: it doesn't have to be popular speech you're not the person who decides who gets freedom of speech. we all get it and only the US Supreme Court decides these matters. > > Man it's so much fun talking to a troll one-on-one. Do you really think > > anyone takes you seriously? > > Better a troll than a criminal... > Do we need FEDS in here to figure out the difference? > > Do we need to have a full investigation? > > Of what? well, now about Freedom Of Speech on SourceForge Discussion Lists... that'll bankrupt SourceForge in about thirty seconds then collusion between Tenon and XonX lenny bruce I am not a comedian, keeptruthfree@earthlink.net I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Benjamin Reed Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:37:51 AM America/New_York To: lenny bruce Subject: Re: you're a looney tune who will cost SourceForge a million dollars On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 09:56 AM, lenny bruce wrote: > I'm not trying to "rant" about Tenon... > the post I referenced was about a bug in cfengine. No, but you gave up your fink mailing list subscription when you did rant. *you* made the decision when you continued to be off-topic after being told not to continue. > we're talking about freedom of speech > and legal challenges over this issue in Internet Discussion Lists > have cost people and companies millions of dollars > and only resulted in speech being freed again after illegal attempts to stop > it > > never once has anybody ever won taking your position What, the position of "we asked you to leave if you didn't stop, you didn't stop, so we removed you?" > the insulting part is this act about having to write from scratch > something XonX wrote months ago and gave away to Tenon to sell This is where I don't understand you. XonX gave it away to *everyone*. IT IS IN THEIR FRIGGIN' CVS! If tenon wants to try selling it, they're welcome to. That's what X's license says. Just because no one else bothered to pack it up and release it as a binary doesn't mean it was a conspiracy to make you buy tenon's version. XFree86 was following the same release schedule they've used for years, and that release schedule basically said, in this case, "no new major changes until 4.3 comes out, which is due in January 2003". It's not like they're gonna backport mostly-untested GL support to the stable release. > oh, I see... you've released them where nobody can find them... > > "hey, look, way up in the attic where nobody would ever guess to look, > we've released the ultra-secret HW-OpenGL version of XFree86..." I pointed to attic to show the history, but the non-attic one has a package as well. The reason it's not in fink unstable or stable is it's *not yet stable*. Not because we're *hiding* it. Up until yesterday KDE 3.1 was available in experimental too. That's because the KDE folks didn't deem it stable yet. Now it is. Big whup. > (I would have used the word attic for comic purposes anyway > but you've actually literally released it in the "attic" of CVS!) Back up a directory, and you'll see the current version. The experimental tree has been discussed numerous times on the mailing list as the place you can get things that aren't ready for release. It's not pointed to in big red letters because it's not ready to be supported by the developers. > > You also didn't listen when we asked you to stay on topic multiple times. > > study the Larry Flynt case: it doesn't have to be popular speech > > you're not the person who decides who gets freedom of speech. > we all get it and only the US Supreme Court decides these matters. ... > well, now about Freedom Of Speech on SourceForge Discussion Lists... > that'll bankrupt SourceForge in about thirty seconds OK, whatever. You agreed to SourceForge's terms of service when you used their site, and their TOS says that you can be removed. Not only that, we gave you a warning, you had the opportunity to get on-topic, and you didn't. I can't tell you what to do, but this is just plain silly. SF is not a public forum, it's a service run by SourceForge for it's users. > then collusion between Tenon and XonX I have no interest in talking to you about that any further. I think you're on crack if you think somehow Tenon could keep XonX from doing whatever they wanted.